Author: Time To Say Goodbye

Credit: Carolyn Drake

Hello from the greater Sea-Tac area!

Andy and Tammy here with a bonus episode, interviewing Darren Byler, a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Colorado and an expert on the Uyghur people, a Muslim community in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region in Northwest China. 

Darren’s years of anthropological research in Xinjiang will be published in a forthcoming book titled Terror Capitalism. Until then, you can find his work at SupChina, Made in China journal, and his own site, “art of life in Chinese Central Asia.” He has also written specially about surveillance technologies in Xinjiang.

5:30 - Is it true that right-wing voices dominate the international conversation about the Uyghurs of Xinjiang? Why isn’t the international left more vocal?

9:50 – What is Xinjiang? Who are the Uyghurs? And how has the relationship between Uyghurs and Han (ethnic Chinese) people changed from the 1950s to the present? In recent decades, Xinjiang has become a source for energy resources, the cotton in our clothing, and the tomatoes in our food.

We recount the path from “opening up the west” (1990s) to “the people’s war on terror” (2000-10s) to the most recent “reeducation camps.”

21:05 – Darren argues that the moralistic paradigm of “cultural difference” and “ethnic genocide” are inadequate. He explains why we need a broader analysis of the social forces producing violence, exploitation, and state repression. Hint: capitalism?

Also, how has China appropriated the US’s rhetoric of “war on terror” to racialize the Muslim Uyghurs? Aka “I learned it by watching you, Dad!”

Referenced: a new report on Uyghur labor in export-oriented factories in China (Australian Strategic Policy Institute)

56:50 – What’s a good leftist to do? Is it okay to back right-wingers who call China morally evil? What are potential avenues for international solidarity (what about the Uyghur diaspora? the Chinese diaspora?)?

Also, Darren cites recommended reading on the region and tells us what traps to avoid — and also defends journalists at The New York Times (the ones who wrote this) against Andy’s snobbish dismissal of reportage! 

Outro: an excerpt from “Uchrashqanda,” by the Uyghur singer and dutar player Abdurehim Heyit, who was imprisoned by the Chinese authorities and has not been heard from since last year.

Links:

Camp Album project: a multimedia collection by Xinjiang diaspora

The Xinjiang Documentation Project at the University of British Columbia

From the same site, Chinese translations of English publications on Xinjiang

Historian David Brophy’s modern account of the region

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Hello from our galaxy brain!    

This week, we begin with a brief chat about (social) media “cancel culture,” based on an open letter recently published in Harper’s. We then discuss a workplace controversy at the Boba Guys chain; the suicide of the mayor of Seoul, Park Won-soon, and what his death means in the context of South Korean feminism, per Tammy’s reporting; and a telling exchange about the NBA’s rules of wokeness between Republican US Senator Josh Hawley and ESPN NBA reporter Adrian Wojnarowski.

As always, thank you for listening and subscribing. Please spread the word and send feedback via Twitter (@ttsgpod) or email (timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com)! 

0:57 – What are the boundaries of “free speech” on the Internet and in the minds of media elites? Who has the power to cancel whom? 

7:29 – Why did the owners of Boba Guys go all out on “Black Lives Matter” while mistreating Black and Latinx employees, and what does their conduct reveal about Asian-American food culture? 

31:00 – Why have so many high-profile South Korean men escaped accountability for gender-based misconduct and violence? What are the contours of Korea’s #MeToo movement?

56:19 – Is it right for the NBA to host games in Orlando during the pandemic? Should we support “Free Woj” or does the other side have a point about league-sanctioned political slogans? Is it good when radical politics become safe enough to adopt by profit-driven corporations? (also Jay tries to remember what the CLS kritik said.)

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Greetings from our USB microphones!  

In this episode, we discuss ICE’s recent rule prohibiting international students from staying in the U.S. if their colleges go fully online. We also dig into questions of cross-race solidarity in the Black Lives Matter movement, especially regarding Latinx/brown communities. Finally, we answer our first sampling of listener questions. 

As always, thank you for listening and subscribing. Please spread the word and continue to send feedback via Twitter (@ttsgpod) or email (timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com)! 

5:09 – How would the ICE crackdown on international students work? Who is the real target (psst China), and what are the broader economic implications for universities and college towns? (i.e., Whither Stonybrook, NY’s glorious Chinese food?)  

28:22 – Jennifer Medina wrote a provocative story in the New York Times on Latinx participation in the BLM movement and questions of fit: “Latinos Back Black Lives Matter Protests. They Want Change for Themselves, Too.” Can a focused movement be inclusive? How do we stand up for one another? Do we need to complicate the Black-white paradigm of race in America?

53:39 – We attempt to answer very smart questions about our episode on tankie-ism and alternatives to American and Chinese imperialism, how we should actually address anti-black racism in the Asian diaspora (see our post from a few weeks ago), and what a rewriting of Asian-American history (from Chinese Exclusion to Grace Lee Boggs, Yuri Kochiyama, and Vincent Chin) might entail. Thanks to listeners Carlo, Michelle, Chung-chieh, and Sam for their questions. And apols to everyone whose messages we didn’t get to tackle.

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Greetings from Berkeley, Philadelphia, and Tacoma! 

This week, we chat about Viet Thanh Nguyen’s recent essay on Asian America, race, and class (Time); the abolition of whiteness advocated by Jay’s former mentor, Noel Ignatiev; and the dead-ends and possibilities of race talk in media. 

* Remember to keep sending us feedback and questions via Twitter at @ttsgpod or via email at timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com. * 

3:35 – Nguyen’s article on the “trap of the ‘model minority’ stereotype.” In what ways is the category “Asian American” limiting, and in what ways is it enabling—or something we might productively transcend?

30:43 – How to be an Asian American race traitor: we discuss the journal Race Traitor, about “treason to whiteness,” and consider analogies to the professional Asian class. What’s the difference between the radical historians of whiteness and White Fragility? Can we practice anti-racist politics without reifying racial categories?

49:48 – Are diversity gestures in the media world distraction from or emulation of real social change?

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Hi, all:

Just Andy this time, with a Thursday edition bonus episode, in which I talk with Brian Hioe of New Bloom, a bilingual online magazine with radical analysis of Taiwan and East Asia.

On Monday, New Bloom published an explainer essay on the very confusing phenomenon of “tankies,” aka people who argue that the true leftist position is to support the Chinese Communist Party as a check on US imperialism. Most famously, tankies denounce the Hong Kong protests as bourgeois and right-wing, as puppets of US empire.

Their statements are at once funny and depressing, amusing and exhausting. I think Brian and I agree, though, that they are worth taking seriously because they reflect a very real set of tensions in global politics—with few clear solutions.

Whom do we “side with” in an increasingly closed-off, nationalistic world? Must critics of US foreign policy — and the long history of Euro-American colonialism and imperialism — choose other states to support instead? For a Gen Z critical of free-market neoliberalism, what “actually existing” alternatives are there to global capitalism?

The New Bloom piece explores these questions by examining the mysterious Qiao Collective, whose members ostensibly belong to the left-nationalist Chinese diaspora. When it comes to the Asian diaspora (though not unique to it), there is the always fun, extra ingredient of confused identity and an unfulfilled sense of belonging, heightened by local xenophobic rhetoric.

Given these factors, Brian fears that tankie ideology may continue to spread.

Issues we touch on:

* Are Hong Kong’s protests “right-wing” if their citizens espouse xenophobia?

* Is the category “diaspora,” or huaqiao 華僑, good or bad?

* The Orientalism and self-orientalizing of tankies

* Tankies and US Republicans as bizarro mirror images of one another

Is there potential for common dialogue? With tankies or with the everyday people of China?

!!!

Links:

* New Bloom: “The Qiao Collective and Left Diasporic Chinese Nationalism”

* Today (June 25) marks the 70-year anniversary of the start of the Korean War. KAP SEOL reminds us, “The US Didn’t Bring Freedom to South Korea — Its People Did” (Jacobin).

* The Critical China Scholars group (new site) will hold the 2nd of two webinars next Thursday (July 2) on the topic of “Against Racism and Nationalism.” Register at eventbrite here.

* A developing story worth monitoring is the border dispute between China and India, about one week old now. In India, there is now a call to boycott Chinese goods (most recently by hotels (SCMP), but analysts in India are skeptical if it’s even possible (The Quint). Worth paying attention to, if only because of the recent calls by other countries to decouple from China.

* Under-the-radar news: the Trump administration this week exploited the coronavirus pandemic to extend a ban on multiple visas into the US, from “high-skilled” (H-1B) to seasonal labor (H-2B) and other categories. Early analysis here (Common Dreams).

* Part of the hopeful wave of primary victories this week, Yuh-Line Niou successfully defended her seat against challenger Grace Lee in the Democratic primary for New York’s 65th Assembly District (including Wall Street and Chinatown). Beyond the superficial similarities of two Asian-American women running in the Democratic party, the two candidates represented different constituencies and political visions, a microcosm of the ongoing fight between liberals and progressives within the party (The Indypendent):

As always, feedback, questions, and comments are welcome.

On Twitter, @ttsgpod.

By email, timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com.

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Hello from Oakland, Philadelphia, and New York!

It’s just the three of us this week, talking Koreaboos and soft power, protest goals, and, as promised, Robin DiAngelo’s bestselling book White Fragility.

But before we get into all that, a belated shout-out to our long-suffering audio editor (and master gardener) James Nicholson. And warm thanks to you, our dear listeners and subscribers. We hope to make this podcast and newsletter more interactive, so please be in touch with feedback and questions—which we may even answer on air! You can reach us via Twitter at @ttsgpod or via email at timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com. (We can keep you anonymous, if you’d like.)  

2:57 – Can K-pop fans save us from Trump? Also: the contradictory racial politics of the BTS Army, hallyu (Korean wave) economics (hint: Jurassic Park), Jay on TikTok, and the vindicatory gift of the Koreaboo. This week’s segment on internalized racism: Tammy and Jay call out uncritical Korean nationalism.

37:27 – We check in on the protests in New York, the infamous South Philly videos, and Oakland. Jay provides a vicarious boost of internationalist energy from the longshoremen’s union and the great Angela Davis in Oakland. (Fact-check: the #1 busiest port in the US is not Oakland but LA–Long Beach).

54:13 – (White) people seem to love White Fragility. We discuss the incredible reach of its overly narrow remit (corporate diversity retreats) and wonder how to get America past “personal responsibility” race talk to an analysis aimed at social transformation. Does “white fragility” get in the way of structural change? And is Gen Z immune to an identity politics based on guilt and deference?

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Hello from the American rebellion!

A packed episode on the BLM protests from our vantage point as cynical Asians and former Seattle residents. (Yes, Mukilteo counts.) We discuss the evolving Capitol Hill Occupied Protest both at the top of the show and in the second half, when we interview special guest Dae Shik Kim, Jr., a Seattle-based journalist and activist.

We also get into the latest controversies on Asian American twitter, including a “chewy and bland” tweet about tofu and a handful of viral videos featuring racist Karens. On a more hopeful note, we talk about a writer we admire, Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor, and her recent piece on the generational divide in black electoral politics.

1:06 – The ongoing occupation of Capitol Hill in Seattle and whether the city can successfully balance its focus on racism-specific issues with more general economic grievances (think “Tax Amazon”; her name is pronounced “Sha-ma”). Bonus: a bizarre Philly DSA statement.

15:02 – Bloomberg Asia’s bizarre tweet hating on tofu (screengrab because Bloomberg has since deleted it):

Also, why food seems so central to Asian American outrage, the timeless “cultural appropriation” debate, and how much we’d pay for an “authentic” Asian meal (not a lot!).

27:35 – This week, a couple videos of white women in California harassing Asian people went viral. Are these videos an appropriate way for Asians to link up with racial-justice struggles? Plus, a hobbyhorse of ours: Asians and the category “POC.”

39:56 – We unpack a recent piece by Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor titled, “The End of Black Politics.” Tammy recently hosted a teach-in with Keeanga and Marc Lamont Hill.

47:25 – Seattle-based journalist and activist Dae Shik Kim, Jr. explains the ongoing Capitol Hill Occupied Protest. Why the name change from “autonomous zone”? What are the demands of the “decriminalize Seattle” group? Finally, how Dae Shik has processed this moment as a mixed-race (Korean and Black) person.

Also, a quick announcement: Andy will be participating in a webinar on Thursday (June 18, 7-830P US ET) hosted by a group of scholars of China who want to stake out a left politics against both US and Chinese nationalism. If you’re interested, please register here:

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/left-perspectives-on-the-world-and-china-part-one-tickets-109214433310

Below, a brief description and poster:

Viral Politics: Left Perspectives on the World and China, Part Oneby Verso Books

The COVID-19 pandemic has become the latest locus of growing US-China tensions, opening crucial conversations for the international left related to the principles of anti-capitalism, anti-authoritarianism, anti-racism, and anti-imperialism.As critical scholars of China, we will take up these issues in a two-part webinar series.We begin with the questions: How can we move from scapegoating China to developing an analysis of capitalism, authoritarianism and imperialism as global systems that produce crises and injustices? How can we address proliferating social inequalities, political oppression, and environmental degradation amid geopolitical tensions? How do we counter China-bashing abroad without sidelining the legitimate concerns of Chinese citizens and social movements in China? How do we address rising xenophobia, racism, and nationalism in pandemic times? And, what is the role of China scholars in producing critical knowledge and engaging with political questions?

Co-sponsored by:Haymarket Books, n+1, Made in China Journal, The Nation, New Politics, The Political Economy Research Institute (PERI), Spectre Journal, and Justice is Global

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Hello! This is our freshest recording yet—part one made just hours ago. 

In this episode, we talk about the latest hotspot in the Black Lives Matter uprising: Seattle, near where Andy and Tammy grew up and where Jay has family; and Jay and Andy review the new ESPN documentary on Bruce Lee. We then welcome our special guest (and Andy’s friend and fellow Philadelphian) Nikil Saval, the presumptive winner(!) of a seat in the Pennsylvania State Senate. (There is no Republican in the race.) Follow the results with us here.

3:24 - Jay packs his bags for the anarcho-socialist(?), abolitionist commune of Capitol Hill, Seattle. Why such radical resistance in Bezosland? Where does the uprising go from here? 

(Andy’s audio fails for a bit at 13:15; keep listening!)

20:12 - Is Be Water, the Bruce Lee documentary, any good? Does it go beyond representational politics and potted history? Andy and Jay offer their thoughts. (Tammy hasn’t seen it but chimes in anyway.)

30:08 - We speak with Nikil Saval (taped Sunday, June 7, 2020) about his recent primary election for State Senate district 1 in Pennsylvania. Nikil gives an update on the votes and talks about balancing his two lives as writer and as labor organizer.

Also: Nikil explains how his South Asian background was brought into the campaign and how he had to parry his opponent’s nativist strategy. He discusses how Covid-19 and then the Floyd protests changed the tenor of the campaign.

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A special welcome to all new subscribers!  

Today’s episode is about the murder of George Floyd and the actions around the country.

A few days ago, Jay wrote in our newsletter about Tou Thao, the Hmong cop who participated in Floyd’s killing, and “the myths of Asian American solidarity.” Jay describes what motivated this post, and we discuss when Asian American self-reflection is useful versus narcissistic

Tammy and Jay describe the protests they attended in Brooklyn and Oakland, respectively, over the weekend (May 29 and 30). We also discuss the allegation—made by local, state, and national officials as well as liberal media—that the uprisings in Minneapolis and other cities have been the work of “outside agitators.” Finally, Andy asks whether having an international spotlight on these protests could serve progressive ends. 

0:30- We discuss Jay’s essay, “Tou Thao and the Myths of Asian American Solidarity,” which preceded the first Minnesota protests.

5:45 -  Street updates from Tammy (Brooklyn) and Jay (Oakland). 

26:50- Tammy explains the theory and practice of mutual aid, and we unpack the unsubstantiated news of “outside agitators.” (Note that the Minneapolis government retracted this claim after an investigation into arrest records, but other parties have continued to run with it.) 

59:20- Andy lays out a bizarre parallel: American conservatives support the Hong Kong protests but denounce Black Lives Matter; tankies believe the opposite. Could this moment present an opportunity for international solidarity? How might we use international criticism of the U.S. to support a left agenda?

ABOUT US

Time to Say Goodbye is a podcast—with your hosts, Jay Caspian Kang, Tammy Kim, and Andy Liu. We launched this thing because, like you, we’ve been sheltering in place and wanted an outlet for our thoughts on the coronavirus, Asia, geopolitics, and Asian Americans.

A short introduction to your hosts:

Jay Caspian Kang is a writer-at-large for the New York Times Magazine and the author of the forthcoming book The Loneliest Americans.

E. Tammy Kim is a magazine reporter, a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times, and a retired lawyer. She co-edited the book Punk Ethnography.

Andrew Liu is a historian of modern China. He wrote a book called Tea War, about the history of capitalism in Asia. He remains a huge Supersonics fan.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hello!

In this episode, we chat about relocating during the pandemic, reading (or, in Jay’s case, not reading) physical books, and the University of California system’s recent decision to suspend use of the SAT in admissions.

We then give a transnational welcome to Jenny Chan, professor of sociology and China studies at Hong Kong Polytechnic University and co-author of the forthcoming book, Dying for an iPhone. Jenny has devoted the last decade to researching labor conditions and activism in China, especially at Foxconn plants, where migrants and student “interns” build Apple gadgets for export. She speaks with us about the global struggle for workers’ rights and what Beijing’s recent crackdown on Hong Kong means for her community.   

1:03 - Andy outs himself as someone who(se employer) hires people to pack his belongings.  

5:45 -  Is the UC’s rejection of the SAT “anti-Asian”? How do we change the zero-sum game of higher education and prevent Asian American students from getting red-pilled? For background, read Jay’s story on Asian Americans and affirmative action.

20:39 -  Does the mainstream debate over affirmative action force progressive Asian Americans to act against their own self-interest? Bonus: a ZIP code thought experiment, and why freshman Bill Chang does not want to room with his best friend Bill Chang.

30:16 - Jenny explains how Hong Kongers are dealing with the coronavirus and reacting to a new national security law proposed by the central government in Beijing, bypassing Hong Kong. She is hopeful that Hong Kongers will continue to fight for their democratic values.

38:16 - Jenny discusses her work on labor issues in the region. In Hong Kong, democracy protests have spurred a historic rise of unionization; in China, labor activists have battled employers and the state, even in the face of repressive tactics. She tells us why people around the world should care about China’s working class.

51:06 - Is China the next logical site of a mass labor movement? With a workforce of nearly one billion people, it seems to offer the greatest potential. Elite Chinese university students have taken notice, too, and are organizing in solidarity with workers. Jenny discusses how their generation has been shaped by the negative consequences of globalization. 

ABOUT US

Time to Say Goodbye is a podcast—with your hosts, Jay Caspian Kang, Tammy Kim, and Andy Liu. We launched this thing because, like you, we’ve been sheltering in place and wanted an outlet for our thoughts on the coronavirus, Asia, geopolitics, and Asian Americans.

A short introduction to your hosts:

Jay Caspian Kang is a writer-at-large for the New York Times Magazine and the author of the forthcoming book The Loneliest Americans.

E. Tammy Kim is a magazine reporter, a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times, and a retired lawyer. She co-edited the book Punk Ethnography.

Andrew Liu is a historian of modern China. He wrote a book called Tea War, about the history of capitalism in Asia. He remains a huge Supersonics fan.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe