Author: Time To Say Goodbye

Hello!

We’re extremely excited about today’s episode, which includes a lengthy interview with Mike Davis, a friend of the international working class and the author of works such as Prisoners of the American Dream, City of Quartz, and Planet of Slums. We talk about “this moment,” and the need for dissent, street protest and the refusal of the false choice laid out in front of working people between risking their health and complete financial ruin. He also tells us about his rock collection.

Mike has been writing and giving a lot of interviews during the pandemic, as many have discovered his prophetic 2005 book, The Monster at Our Door: The Global Threat of Avian Flu. And earlier this year, Mike and his friend, Jon Wiener, published Set the Night on Fire: L.A. in the Sixties, a stunning history of social movements—led by black, Chicano, and Asian Angelenos—that reads like a playbook for organizing against our terrible present. 

1:20 - Mike describes his holed-up multigenerational homelife in San Diego—with his wife, the curator and professor Alessandra Montezuma, twin high-schoolers, and Alessandra’s aunt. Also: why working-class leftists should protest the false choice of lockdown or death; and why Biden should be more like AOC. “We cannot yield the street,” Mike tells us.

18:08 - Central to the US Covid response has been the literal sacrifice of elders and disabled people in nursing homes. Mike tells us why this constitutes manslaughter, and predicts that Filipino/a health care workers may be among the top casualties of the pandemic. Plus: why food insecurity in Africa, South Asia, and South America should be everyone’s concern. 

35:48 - “The Yellow Peril is back,” Mike says. He talks about Trump’s and Biden’s demonization of China, and their neglect of the risk of nuclear war. And he explains why “the world described in Karl Marx’s Capital is most true in China.” 

55:00 - Mike is still in touch with white working-class pals from 1952 (some of them Trumpers). He describes multiculturalist thinking as “Janus-faced,” but praises young activists, including his twins, for their instinctively radical conceptions of race, class, and gender.

1:08:43 - Can housing organizing be as powerful a vehicle for working-class movements as labor organizing? Mike offers a historical perspective. And a Time to Say Goodbye exclusive: Mike’s extensive rock collection. 

Click here for a transcript of our conversation.

ABOUT US

Time to Say Goodbye is a podcast—with your hosts, Jay Caspian Kang, Tammy Kim, and Andy Liu. We launched this thing because, like you, we’ve been sheltering in place and wanted an outlet for our thoughts on the coronavirus, Asia, geopolitics, and Asian Americans.

A short introduction to your hosts:

Jay Caspian Kang is a writer-at-large for the New York Times Magazine and the author of the forthcoming book The Loneliest Americans.

E. Tammy Kim is a magazine reporter, a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times, and a retired lawyer. She co-edited the book Punk Ethnography.

Andrew Liu is a historian of modern China. He wrote a book called Tea War, about the history of capitalism in Asia. He remains a huge Supersonics fan.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hello from the US lockdown!

It’s just the three of us this episode, chatting about soggy bread and soggier humans—and all things China, America’s best frenemy and the official scapegoat of the 2020 election. 

1:00 - What's the deal with focaccia? Tammy loves it, but Jay and Andy associate it with terrible sandwiches on Manhattan’s Upper West Side.

3:17 - The Goopy cook and columnist Alison Roman got semi-canceled last week. We unwisely weigh in on this racialized controversy among wealthy celebrity foodies and lifestyle-brand influencers.

7:43 - In honor of Asian American Pacific Islander heritage month, we debate the utility of panels. Why so many? Are they capable of tackling broader structures and patterns, or do they necessarily champion capitalistic upward mobility? Also: the historian checklist of Yellow Peril, the 1882 Chinese Exclusion Act, and the 1982 murder of Vincent Chin; the meaning and coherence of “AAPI”; and the often reactionary history of global pan-Asianism. 

24:10 - Trump is predictably blaming China for Covid-19 and everything wrong with his administration, and the Republicans have circulated a template for anti-Beijing electioneering. What does this leaked GOP strategy brief (aka the O’Donnell Memo) say? And why have the Democrats, too, gone all in on China bashing? Hint: polling numbers. Also - What really happened in China at the start of the pandemic? Is “wet market” out and “bat laboratory” in? Bonus: how US nationalism produces Chinese patriotism and whether we’re headed for another Cold War.

ABOUT US

Time to Say Goodbye is a podcast—with your hosts, Jay Caspian Kang, Tammy Kim, and Andy Liu. We launched this thing because, like you, we’ve been sheltering in place and wanted an outlet for our thoughts on the coronavirus, Asia, geopolitics, and Asian Americans.

A short introduction to your hosts:

Jay Caspian Kang is a writer-at-large for the New York Times Magazine and the author of the forthcoming book The Loneliest Americans.

E. Tammy Kim is a magazine reporter, a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times, and a retired lawyer. She co-edited the book Punk Ethnography.

Andrew Liu is a historian of modern China. He wrote a book called Tea War, about the history of capitalism in Asia. He remains a huge Supersonics fan

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Happy belated May 1st, international workers’ day! 

This episode is about organizing and health care “heroes.”

We talk about cheering for essential workers, Whitmanesque yawps and coyote mewls, and the politics of “shelter in place.” Why are liberals so angry at people who need to get some air? And what’s behind right-wing protests at state capitals? We consider the underlying grievances and explore the possibility of class-based organizing. 

Our guest, in the second half, is Tre Kwon, an ICU nurse in Manhattan, a shop steward for the New York State Nurses Association, a new mom, and an editor at Left Voice, an international socialist publication. Tre tells us why she gave up half her maternity leave to resume nursing and what she hopes the pandemic will produce in the way of social change. 

1:11 - How do we maintain community in a world of social distancing? Tammy describes the nightly ritual of cheering (or playing Korean gongs) for health care workers in New York. Jay recounts his Oakland neighbors’ routine of howling and bongo drums.

5:53 - American cities are beginning to hire contact tracers to address Covid-19. Is something resembling the South Korean model possible in the US? Will Americans tolerate it, and can it work with the number of cases continuing to increase? 

13:36 - Could contact tracing become a major jobs program? Mulling nationalization and its five government proponents. 

21:57 - The debate over whether or not to reopen the economy is dominated by right-wing talking points versus liberal “Nimby” moralism. Why don’t leftists respond more forcefully to the economic disaster felt by the working class and the poor? Jay unleashes a bottled-up rant. Andy contextualizes the language of “freedom.”

37:58 - Tre describes the reality of corporate, for-profit medicine and explains why she and her colleagues could foresee the disaster of the pandemic. Also: why we can’t count on Democrats to save us.

47:06 - What good are small-scale protests and work stoppages? Tre digs into rage at work, the radicalizing nature of care labor, and why unions, despite their flaws, must be a central pillar of left politics. 

ABOUT US

Time to Say Goodbye is a podcast—with your hosts, Jay Caspian Kang, Tammy Kim, and Andy Liu. We launched this thing because, like you, we’ve been sheltering in place and wanted an outlet for our thoughts on the coronavirus, Asia, geopolitics, and Asian Americans.

A short introduction to your hosts:

Jay Caspian Kang is a writer-at-large for the New York Times Magazine and the author of the forthcoming book The Loneliest Americans.

E. Tammy Kim is a magazine reporter, a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times, and a retired lawyer. She co-edited the book Punk Ethnography.

Andrew Liu is a historian of modern China. He wrote a book called Tea War, about the history of capitalism in Asia. He remains a huge Supersonics fan. 

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hello!

This episode is about the politics of the Asian diaspora. 

We explain why we named our podcast Time to Say Goodbye and update one another on quarantine pickling (to Maangchi or not to Maangchi?). We then tackle the more serious topic of Asian American politics: How might we move beyond “seat at the table,” professional-class concerns and embrace an “internationalist” perspective that looks to Asia?

Andy tells us about his new book, published just last week, which leads to a brief discussion of scholarly trends and why Asian history—that of China and India, in this case—deserves to be studied not only through the lens of tradition and culture but also political economy.

In the second half, we speak with Wilfred Chan, a freelance reporter, contributing writer at The Nation, and activist based in New York. Oh, and Andy’s former student! Check out Wilfred’s writing on the 2019 Hong Kong protests and the Lausan 流傘 collective, New York City’s “essential” food couriers, and the WHO’s costly discrimination against Taiwan.

1:20 - We answer the burning question of why we’re called Time to Say Goodbye. (Spoiler: Jay loves old-people karaoke; Tammy felt outvoted; Andy just didn’t want to be fired.) Plus disquisitions on authentic YouTube cooking. 

9:43 - The last thing the world needs is another podcast, so why us? We assess the state of Asian America and explain why we’re in favor of swerving left. 

16:46 - Everyone nerds out in honor of Andy’s new book, Tea War: A History of Capitalism in China and India. Also: the academy’s renewed interest in capitalism, the eighteenth-century French Physiocrats, Jay and Andy’s debate-team credentials and how Agamben (an Italian philosopher) got dunked on.

33:40 - Wilfred tells us about his journey from Seattle to New York to writing for CNN in Hong Kong, and how he got politicized.

53:00- We ask Wilfred about the “false choice” familiar to many within the Asian diaspora—between criticizing anti-Asian racism and blindly defending the governments and corporations in Asia (China, Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc.).

ABOUT US

Time to Say Goodbye is a podcast—with your hosts, Jay Caspian Kang, Tammy Kim, and Andy Liu. We launched this thing because, like you, we’ve been sheltering in place and wanted an outlet for our thoughts on the coronavirus, Asia, geopolitics, and Asian Americans.

A short introduction to your hosts:

Jay Caspian Kang is a writer-at-large for the New York Times Magazine and the author of the forthcoming book The Loneliest Americans.

E. Tammy Kim is a magazine reporter, a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times, and a retired lawyer. She co-edited the book Punk Ethnography.

Andrew Liu is a historian of modern China. He wrote a book called Tea War, about the history of capitalism in Asia. He remains a huge Supersonics fan. 

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome to Time To Say Goodbye!

Today, we have a bonus episode for you about Korean coronavirus test-and-trace—with Max Kim, a journalist living in Seoul who recently wrote a lengthy article for the New Yorker as well as an informative and timely piece a few months back for the MIT Technology Review.

We are still experimenting with the format of these emails, so today we thought we’d highlight some of the points we discussed with Max.

1:13 - How the Korean response to Covid-19 was a direct result of a failed response to the MERS epidemic in 2015.

10:39 - How the first days of Covid-19 felt and how quickly the Korean CDC sprung into action with a broad testing program.

16:01 - How Korea “rehearsed” for Covid-19 and how it got a little lucky.

20:40 - What are the actual strategies we can learn from Korea? And what are the particulars of the Korean test-and-trace program?

26:00 - Are there concerns about privacy in Korea? How are they processed?

34:30 - Could Korea have accomplished what it did without universal health care?

38:00 - The million-dollar question: Can we do test-and-trace in America?

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

EPISODE 2: African Guangzhou and Coronavoting in Korea

Hello!

Time to Say Goodbye is a podcast—with your hosts, Jay Caspian Kang, Tammy Kim, and Andy Liu. We launched this thing because, like you, we’ve been sheltering in place and wanted an outlet for our thoughts on the coronavirus, Asia, geopolitics, and Asian Americans.

A short introduction to your hosts:

Jay Caspian Kang is a writer-at-large for the New York Times Magazine and the author of the upcoming book The Loneliest Americans.

E. Tammy Kim is a magazine reporter, a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times, and a retired lawyer. She co-edited the book Punk Ethnography.

Andrew Liu is a historian of modern China. He wrote a book called Tea War, about the history of capitalism in Asia. He remains a huge Supersonics fan. 

Today’s show is about markets and mandates.

The large African immigrant community in Guangzhou, in southern China, has faced persecution on Covid-19 grounds. We discuss this in the context of China-Africa relations and global racism. Soapboxing about: trade routes, multiculturalism, and ancient explanatory power.

We return, regrettably, to the topic of Asian American discrimination, America-first navel-gazing, and what it means to declare: “Chinatown is not in China.”

Then we welcome our first guest, Victoria Kim, Seoul correspondent for the Los Angeles Times. Victoria tells us about last week’s midterm parliamentary elections in South Korea, the first national vote of the pandemic era. What can we learn from Korea’s election protocols? Why did voters turn out in such large numbers? How has Korea’s successful response to the virus affected its reputation abroad? And how might the ruling liberal Democrats parlay their landslide victory? 

Show notes:

3:05 – Why are Chinese people lashing out against Guangzhou’s African immigrant community? What are the international implications and, without resorting to pop anthropology, can we draw parallels to the xenophobia in the U.S.? The latest, plus background here and here.

26:30 – Does a second-generation Chinese American doctor deserve to get “hate-crimed” less than a new immigrant laborer from Hong Kong? Discrimination takes from an Asian American éminence grise and a Joy Luck Club alumna.

40:01 – The brilliant Victoria Kim of the Los Angeles Times, on electoral politics and life in a functioning democracy. Sigh. Her coverage of record turnout, the woolly future of human contact, and all things South Korea.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hello!

Time to Say Goodbye is a podcast—with your hosts, Jay Caspian Kang, Tammy Kim, and Andy Liu. We launched this thing because, like you, we’ve been sheltering in place and wanted an outlet for our thoughts on the coronavirus, Asia, geopolitics, and Asian Americans.

A short introduction to your hosts:

Jay Caspian Kang is a writer-at-large for the New York Times Magazine and the author of the upcoming book The Loneliest Americans.

E. Tammy Kim is a magazine reporter, a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times, and a retired lawyer. She co-edited the book Punk Ethnography.

Andrew Liu is a historian of modern China. He wrote a book called Tea War, about the history of capitalism in Asia. He remains a huge Supersonics fan. 

Today’s show is about travel and opulence.

We trace the Pangolin market and its wealthy consumers. We then tell you about the city of Wuhan and how its place in the economy all but ensured a global spread of Covid-19. Included in the discussion: supply chains, business travel, car-parts manufacturing, and tourism.

We move on to masks and South Korea. Tammy tells us about her recent article in the New York Times, on the government’s efforts to prevent price-gouging and distribute masks through local pharmacies. We talk about why Westerners weren’t initially keen to adopt the mask, then rapidly changed their mind over the past few weeks, at least in the United States.

Last, we explore Andrew Yang’s infamous op-ed in the Washington Post—and the backlash.

Show notes:

2:41 – Korean quarantine for international travelers. A description of what it’s like here.

6:15 – How coronavirus spread, the politics of the “wet market,” and pangolins. Andy’s article about China and mundane forms of global transmission, plus a follow-up opinion piece here.

45:00 – Why did Americans resist wearing masks? Tammy’s article, with lessons from South Korea, and her interview with a lead Korean doctor here.

1:12 – Obligatory conversation about Andrew Yang’s op-ed.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe