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The Ezra Klein Show - George Saunders on Anger, Ambition and Sin

George Saunders is tired of being the “kindness guy.”

Saunders is one of my favorite fiction writers, and a friend of the pod; I talked to him back in 2021 and 2022. He also has a reputation as a kind of guru of kindness, thanks to a viral commencement speech he gave back in 2013. We talked about kindness on the show before.

But with the publication of his new novel, “Vigil,” I noticed that something about Saunders seemed to have shifted. He was pushing back against that public persona, and wrestling with darker themes.

“Vigil” follows an oil tycoon who, on his deathbed, is visited by angels and people from his past asking him to reassess his life. And you can feel a tension in that book that is also very alive in Saunders himself — between recognizing how much of our lives are conditioned by our circumstances and the need to pass judgment to reckon with the truth.

In this conversation, I discuss that tension with Saunders. I ask him about his relationship not just to kindness but also to anger; how he defines sin; whether he believes in free will; and what he thinks lies beyond kindness.

This episode contains strong language.

Mentioned:

Vigil by George Saunders

“What It Means to Be Kind in a Cruel World” by The Ezra Klein Show

“George Saunders Convocation Speech 2013”

“A Tough Question Indeed” by George Saunders

East West Street by Philippe Sands

“When Is It Genocide?” by The Ezra Klein Show

Book Recommendations:

I Will Bear Witness, Volume 1 by Victor Klemperer

Red Cavalry and Other Stories by Isaac Babel

The Place of Tides by James Rebanks

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota, Efim Shapiro and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.


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Pod Save America - 1119: MAGA: Defenders of the Epstein Class

Epstein revelations continue. New files reveal that the notorious sex offender had closer relationships than previously known with Trump’s inner circle, including Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick. Ghislaine Maxwell pleads the Fifth to Congress, while her lawyer says she’s “prepared to speak fully and honestly” if Trump agrees to let her out of prison. While Jon, Tommy, and Lovett are overseas, Alex Wagner and Ben Rhodes discuss how the files are rattling politicians around the world, and why consequences have been more severe abroad than in the U.S. There’s also the fight to put limits on ICE playing out in the courts and Congress, Trump’s scheme to celebrate America’s 250th birthday with a fresh grift, and why RFK Jr. can’t be trusted with the Super Bowl snacks.
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The Indicator from Planet Money - The boxed meal helping Americans stay on budget

Food keeps getting more expensive, so how do shoppers respond? They change what they buy, right? It’s not just that cheaper foods get more popular. Shoppers are more nuanced than that. So, today on the show, we choose one classic meal that is tailor-made for this anxious economic moment. Why Hamburger Helper is poised to win 2026.

Related episodes: 
How niche brands got into your local supermarket
Can you trust you're getting the same grocery prices as someone else?
Hits of the Dips: Songs of recessions past

For sponsor-free episodes of The Indicator from Planet Money, subscribe to Planet Money+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Fact-checking by Sierra Juarez. Music by Drop Electric. Find us: TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Newsletter.

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NPR's Book of the Day - Gov. Josh Shapiro emphasizes civic engagement in new memoir ‘Where We Keep the Light’

Gov. Josh Shapiro has plenty of dark experiences that he could recount in his new memoir, Where We Keep the Light. In his first term as Pennsylvania’s governor, he investigated abuse within the Catholic Church and was the victim of an arson attack in his own home. But as Shapiro eyes a second term in Pennsylvania, he says he’s choosing to focus on the light. In today’s episode Shapiro sits down with NPR’s Scott Detrow, and the two discuss the power of local civic engagement — including how small communities can produce big change. 


To listen to Book of the Day sponsor-free and support NPR's book coverage, sign up for Book of the Day+ at plus.npr.org/bookoftheday

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Read Me a Poem - “The Temple Road” by Lynette Roberts

Amanda Holmes reads Lynette Roberts’s “The Temple Road.” Have a suggestion for a poem by a (dead) writer? Email us: podcast@theamericanscholar.org. If we select your entry, you’ll win a copy of a poetry collection edited by David Lehman.

 

This episode was produced by Stephanie Bastek and features the song “Canvasback” by Chad Crouch.

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